Things we think we know about EGL fashion but actually don't: Kuniko Kato and Milk Morizono

On August 23, 2024, Kuniko Kato and Milk Morizono hosted an event called "Subculture Laboratory: Discussing Things We Think We Know About Lolita Fashion But Actually Don't" in which they discussed lolita fashion and subculture in front of a live audience. It was also streamed live online on Twitcasting.tv. Being a huge fan of Kato's work, I wanted to listen to her talk!

Disclaimer: Much of the content of this post summarizes the content of the discussion rather than being a 1:1 translation of exact quotes. All English language translation/summary work is my own; please credit me and link this post if you post it anywhere else.

promotional image for the event (source)

Speakers

Kuniko Kato (加藤訓仁子) - Clothing creator. She has worked in clothing sales for a long time and has been designing clothes for 31 years and counting. She is a lolita fashion designer and has run two fashion brands (Metamorphose from 1993-2009 and Physical Drop from 2010-present). She has also had many other customer service jobs throughout her life so she knows how to talk with people. Occasionally gives ~90 minute guest lectures at the fashion school she graduated from.

Milk Morizono (森園 みるく) - Manga artist. Her debut was in 1981 as a shôjo (girls') manga illustrator, then gag manga, then TL (teen's love) manga. These days she primarily creates works for adult women with mature themes and content. She is also a fan of fashion, particularly high fashion.

Overview and topics

The first half of the discussion focused primarily on the supposed and real historical aspects and roots of lolita subculture and fashion, and the second half focused primarily on personal experiences and theories. This Twitter post from shortly before the discussion took place shows the planned agenda (which Kato was very vocal about attempting to stick to, haha).

What is lolita fashion?

In the interest of making the discussion as beginner friendly as possible (especially since Morizono was not well acquainted with lolita fashion) as well as providing a starting point, Kato defines lolita fashion, or at least what the internet would have you believe defines lolita fashion. The internet will often tell you that lolita fashion is based on Victorian or Rococo clothing, medieval princesses, or shôjo manga heroines, but she personally thinks that's incorrect. Brand concepts might say things like that, but people mistakenly assume those brand concepts are the roots of lolita fashion. She says that people tend to believe this because there aren't really any formal historical documents or reference materials that cover the history of lolita fashion or how it came to exist. (Morizono encouraged her to publish one!)

Lolita fashion, born in Japan

With a lot of different fashion styles you can easily look up historical data or references but there isn't really a lot of historical information or references associated with lolita fashion apart from fashion magazines and early photographs from people who participated in it. It's a street fashion and the internet wasn't around (at least not anywhere near in its current capacity) to capture the early days. Many of the people researching lolita fashion academically are located outside of Japan and are working incredibly hard to gather any sort of reference materials. Most Japanese scholars of fashion seem to be more interested in the history of cosplay because that is what tends to get research funding.

Morizono asked if each brand can have totally different themes for their clothing, and Kato said yes. Some designers might really be into historical influences and study them carefully, and add historical clothing elements into their designs. However, she is not one of those people. She does not work from references. Kato designs things as though she's putting together a puzzle from her ideas. In rare instances, though, she has tried to use references. For example, when she was designing the Metamorphose school series, she said she browsed school uniform websites for hours studying blazers and such very carefully to make sure they would look recognizably like school uniforms. There weren't references for lolita so there's no way she could use them, especially not back in the early days of Metamorphose.

On the term "lolita fashion" and where it came from

When Metamorphose was first starting out (mid 1990s), the closest thing to lolita was "Harajuku fashion" that came from brands like Jane Marple and MILK. The term "lolita fashion" was just starting to get used around that time. MILK has been around since the 1970s and is not lolita, more "kawaii fashion" but is well loved by people who like lolita. The skirts were often really short (many under 40 cm long)! In general it tends to primarily fit shorter people; the blouse sleeves and skirts tend to be quite short, especially on Kato (who is somewhat tall). If she found something that fit her she'd wear it though. Morizono remarked that she's visited a MILK store before and thought things would be too small for her. Even so, Kato says that MILK was still incredibly popular! She lived in Kyoto and worked in Osaka at a department store. In a big city like that you'd think you could get MILK items relatively easily, but their stock would sell out quickly and there'd be nothing to buy. It was expensive, too! Morizono remarks that Pink House was similarly very expensive but also popular. Because MILK items were expensive and hard to obtain, people would buy items from regular clothing stores that looked similar to MILK. It was the closest we could get. It was cute, but not like the "kawaii fashion" of today. It usually wasn't trimmed with lace or anything like that.

When people unfamiliar with the fashion hear the term "lolita," they often misunderstand and say "Oh! I know what this is! It's lolicon fashion!" But it has nothing to do with lolita complex! Morizono expressed surprise that people STILL confuse these concepts. Kato explained that the term was coined in a time when many people used the words "lolita" and "lolicon" interchangeably, and "lolita" has come to have a similar meaning in current times so that is possibly why. But in her experience, the word "lolita fashion" was born when people looked around and saw the most ideal parts of the fashion they wanted to wear, and that is what they called it.

Morizono asked whether dresses (like what are common now) were always part of lolita fashion. Kato said not really, particularly before the mid-1990s. Pink House sold dress-like things but they weren't exactly lolita fashion, more like something lolitas would wear when they got older. Lolitas didn't really start wearing petticoats until the later half of the 1990s and the skirts were not very full before then. But by the time Metamorphose was established, skirts were more fluffy. Many people didn't own petticoats at the time so it was common for brands to sew stiff tulle onto the skirt lining for volume. There were no "lolita petticoats". If someone had a standalone petticoat it was often made for another style of clothing, like 1950s or rockabilly fashion.

(here's where I decided to fully translate the conversation for a bit)

(Kato) You sometimes hear about lolita fashion having "princess" influences, but I don't think that's correct.

(Morizono) You're right, it's a bit different. For example, you can buy a medieval princess dress for Halloween or something, but that's not really lolita fashion. Is it the design? Would you call it cosplay?

(Kato) It's a little different from cosplay too. The beginnings of lolita fashion were everyday clothes. Early lolitas would collect normal clothes that were girly and cute and create outfits with them. These items were not made specifically for lolita. There weren't really any standard items or rules.

(Morizono) So most people in the fashion at the time didn't have the designing and sewing skills that you did so they'd collect regular clothes instead. Similar to the cosplay world, how fewer people make their own costumes from scratch.

(Kato) Yes. When there was no one mass producing it, everyone made their own.

(Morizono) There are some seriously talented people out there making their own costumes.

(Kato) Love for something is a powerful motivator to make that thing really good.

(Morizono) I only know how to make manga. You make the patterns for your clothes, right? That's about all I know about making clothes.

(Kato) Yes, I make the patterns. The process for making regular clothes and lolita clothes is the same: come up with a design, create a pattern, gather the materials, and then you give that to a factory and they produce the item. At my company, I was both the designer and the pattern maker, but that's not necessarily the case with every brand. Sometimes the designers and the pattern makers are different people.

(Morizono) You have to fit the pattern to a three-dimensional body, correct? Sorry, I don't know the first thing about patterns.

(Kato) That's right. You can think of it like 3D origami.

(Morizono) But you have to draw it on a flat surface. I find that skill fascinating, as someone outside the field.

(Kato) Is it? Maybe it is.

(Morizono) I'm also fascinated by skills like knowing where to place frills on a garment.

(Kato) Every brand has their own individual style for how gathered the frills are, how wide they are, and where they are placed. It's one of the most identifiable aspects of a particular designer's work. I can identify pieces as my work right away from those details, even very old items. Lots of my long-time customers can, too. (Morizono is amazed.) Lots of very old pieces are solid colored, and it's especially easy to tell with solid colored pieces.

(Morizono) So solid colored pieces with frills were common in the early days. How about for newer pieces? Is there a defining feature for more modern pieces? Prints and frills?

(Kato) With newer pieces, you can usually discern the brand from the print. Fans of a brand can often identify it by their original prints, logos, or sometimes the style of the print just looks like something a particular brand would make. On solid colored pieces, the name isn't written on it so it's harder. But you can tell by how gathered the frills are.

(Morizono) I see people nodding in the audience but I have no clue. (laughs)

(Kato) People can tell when it's what they like. Some people don't like the gather of my frills; it doesn't make sense to them. My brand Physical Drop just doesn't suit some people's taste. But for others, it's perfect.

(Morizono) There's so much to think about with frills!

(Kato) When you draw frilly clothes in your manga, draw them in your own personal way! I think that's the most beautiful thing.

(Morizono) I'm so bad at that though. (laughs) I tried really hard to draw the frills well on this. (She points to the illustration on postcards she drew that are available for sale.)

(Kato) It looks good! (Shows it to the crowd) She drew a girl wearing my heart apron.

the event-limited edition postcard and keychain (source)

(Morizono) I drew her wearing clothes that Kato designed.

(Kato) You can only buy this postcard at this event.

(Morizono) But you can buy the actual apron from her store. It's super cute!

(Kato) I'm told the postcards cost 1000 yen. Definitely buy one if you're interested.

(Morizono) Thank you! But back to frills...

(Kato) Yes. Even if the brand name isn't on the garment, you can absolutely tell who made it by the look of the frills.

(Morizono) Seems like a lot of people who like lolita fashion pay a lot of attention to small details.

(Kato) Yes, that's true.

(Morizono) There are plenty of women in the world who don't really care about fashion, and lolitas are very much the opposite.

(Kato) Yes, lolitas can pay a lot of attention to small details.

Lolita, Gothic, and Gothic Lolita

Many people call it "gothic lolita" but what exactly does that even mean? Goth subculture existed first but how did it get to be involved with lolita fashion? In general, it is believed that Mana (guitarist of the band Malice Mizer) played a large part in joining the two together because both things were interests of his. The Gothic and Lolita Bible began publishing in 2000 but Kato thought the term "gothic and lolita" was likely older than that, and because she doesn't know much at all about visual kei she researched Mana and Malice Mizer's history a bit to try to pinpoint when the term first appeared. According to Wikipedia, Malice Mizer was formed in 1992. Kato started Metamorphose in 1993, and lolita had not mixed with gothic fashion yet at that time. Kato remarks that although Mana's exact age is not publicly known, she can guess his approximate age because she is friends with someone who was in the same graduating class as him, and that friend is 4 years older than her. (Kato was born in 1972. Doing the math, that means Mana is likely in his mid 50s.) Mana's clothing brand Moi-meme-Moitie was founded in 1999. By her research, the term "Gothic & Lolita" was coined around 1999.

Kato then presents her personal theory (stressing that these are only her personal thoughts, not hard data) about how Mana got interested in goth culture. There was a strong, vibrant goth scene in Osaka in the 1990s. A very well known goth store opened there in 1996. (Kato mentioned that the owner of this store passed away a few years ago; I believe she may be referring to Taiki Yokochi, also known as DJ Taiki, and the store mentioned is his satanic/occult shop called Territory.) She thinks that Mana may have been introduced to Osaka's goth scene by his classmates, partially because the aforementioned friend of hers that knows him was also in a band. She thinks it's truly remarkable how he combined the two. Kato was aware of the goth scene in Osaka because people would leave flyers in her store for all-night events at goth clubs. She personally never went to these events but many lolitas in Osaka (including Metamorphose staff!) loved going to them and she thinks these events are where the goth and lolita subcultures came together.

"The goth and lolita subcultures stuck together and a wonderful world was born."

Morizono remarks that she had only a very rudimentary understanding of the difference between gothic and lolita, saying that goths wore black and lolitas wore white. Kato says that while trying to tell apart the styles by color in this case is an oversimplification, it's not entirely wrong either. Kato recalls a time when she wanted to wear a very elegant all-white lolita outfit and was very picky about the shoes. They had to be lolita appropriate (not just regular shoes) and they had to be white, even the soles. They were near impossible to find. Morizono said that it must have been a lot harder for lolitas at that time to find pieces for their wardrobes because goth culture was already well established and they had their own specialty clothing stores already, and Kato confirmed that was true.

Another point Kato makes is that "gothic and lolita" was born before internet culture really began to take off in Japan, so very little information or images from these early years is available online. Many Japanese people did not have personal computers at home until Windows 98 was released (1998). Both she and Morizono were fairly early adopters of computers (mid-1990s). Kato knew someone who was very into Macs and got her to buy one. Morizono estimates she bought her first one in 1994 or 1995 because her boyfriend at that time worked for a computer company and convinced her to get one. They talked about how long it used to take things to load on those old computers, how long it took to connect to the internet or to download a single image. You could take a bathroom break or have dinner and come back to it and it still might not be done.

While Morizono was aware of lolita at the time she didn't feel the urge to try it because she thought it wouldn't suit her. Kato mentions that lolita at that time used to look more like children's clothing, with rounded white collars and pastel colors and bows. Then they joked about how they sound like old ladies reminiscing about old times.

Cosplay and costumes vs. lolita fashion

Of course, lolita fashion is not a costume. The primary difference is that cosplay is worn only for a specific event or purpose (like dressing as a particular character for a comic convention), while lolita fashion is worn as street clothes and the wearer is not trying to dress as any particular character. However, there was and continues to be significant overlap between cosplayers and lolitas. In the late 1990s and 2000s, many cosplayers wore things like Pink House and lolita when they weren't in costume. For example, many popular cosplayers' homepages at that time had a "plain-clothes" (私服) photo section and many included Pink House and lolita outfit shots. The lines get blurred pretty easily, though. It can be hard for someone who isn't in the fashion to tell whether someone's outfit is lolita or cosplay, especially with certain themes like school or work uniforms. For example, it can be hard to tell if someone is wearing a maid costume as opposed to a lolita coord with maid themed elements like an apron and frilly headband. Often, the only major difference is the wearer's intent.

Morizono asked about if there are differences within lolita fashion itself (in how to coordinate an outfit, for example) that might make it seem more like a costume or special occasion wear than regular clothes, and Kato said yes. Most lolitas would likely say that they're in their regular clothes no matter how fancy the coord but at the same time, for many lolitas there are differences between a special occasion outfit vs. a casual one. She mentioned that in general, the audience members that day were in casual outfits.

If you want to ask someone about what they're wearing but you're not sure which kind of outfit it is, ask "are these your regular clothes (衣服ですか)?" instead of "is this a costume (衣装ですか)?" To fashion enthusiasts, clothes are like a part of their body. It's a kinder way of phrasing the question, and it can make a big difference in how the person responds to you.

 

I'd be OK with talking to someone who asked like this, honestly.

Apparel fashion vs. lolita fashion

Kato described apparel fashion as clothes you'd typically find for sale in any major department store or work uniform shop. She noted some big differences between apparel fashion and lolita fashion:

• Pretty much all lolita fashion brands at the time the Gothic and Lolita Bible began publishing were started by amateur fashion designers and not career professionals, whereas apparel fashion is usually designed and produced by large corporations.
  
• Apparel fashion generally prioritizes cost efficiency over all else.
• The process for creating and selling apparel fashion is completely different from that of lolita fashion. Apparel designs are created up to a year in advance, samples are made, and then they are presented at an industry exhibition where corporate buyers and store owners commit to buying designs they want to stock in their stores. Things that sell well at the exhibition get manufactured and sold in stores, while unpopular designs may not get made. In contrast, many lolita fashion brands design and make what they want and then sell it directly to the end consumer, sometimes by preorder or reservation.
  

In the early days, apparel fashion makers didn't respect lolita fashion designers as professionals even though many of them like Kato had proper training at fashion schools. It was only after lolita fashion gained popularity in foreign countries and there was international demand for Japan's "kawaii" culture in the mid-late 2000s that apparel fashion makers began to see any value in it.

There are incredibly few apparel makers that put their heart and soul into their work, especially in the present day, but in lolita fashion it's more like 80-90%. For nearly all makers of lolita fashion, it's a labor of love.

Girls' manga and lolita fashion

Some people think lolita fashion has roots in 1970s shôjo (girls') manga. Kato does not agree with this theory and didn't use it as inspiration for the clothes that she makes, but she does personally love 1970s shôjo manga. While lolita fashion didn't arise from medieval princess fashion or European historical art, some 1970s manga seems to have those influences and may have used historical fashion as references. She brought some examples:

examples of shôjo manga with likely historical fashion references (source)

• Nanatsu no El Dorado (7つの黄金鄉)
• The Count's Daughter (Hakushaku reijô 伯爵令嬢). Kato really loves the dresses in this one even now.

Examples cited of manga featuring clothing inspired by contemporary real life fashion:

 

from left to right: Miki to Apple Pie, Kiss xxxx, Aishite Knight

• Miki to Apple Pie (美季とアップルパイ), a comedy featuring high school girls. Kato bought this one because she thought it exemplified the type of fashion people would assume lolita came from (sausage curls, big bows).
  
• Kiss xxxx, which was popular among both the otaku and music crowds and may have influenced both simultaneously.
• The manga works of Kaoru Tada (多田かおる), especially Aishite Knight (愛してナイト) and Miha Paradise (ミーハー･パラダイス). Her partner was in a band, and her work featured a lot of the type of fashion that women and girls who loved going to concerts ("band gals") would wear.
  

At the time, this type of fashion was considered tacky and ugly, at least by general fashion standards. Kato went looking for references for what people regularly wore in the 1970s and found an issue of m.c. sister from 1973. (The m.c. stands for Men's Club, which was a popular men's fashion magazine; there wasn't much in the way of women's fashion magazines at that time.) It mostly features women in blazers/Ivy Look fashion. She asked people who were alive at that time whether many people wore this style. They said that some people in places like Shibuya (Tokyo) would wear it but they were generally regarded as kind of shady, and this was not anything particularly popular. Many fashion magazines at the time were divided by genre and functioned more like catalogs. In other words, they showed you things that fashion companies were trying to sell rather than the latest trends or fresh, new inspiration.

Kato asked what Morizono turned to for clothing inspiration for her manga characters, especially before the advent of the internet. Morizono went to Harajuku a lot in the 1980s and was especially influenced by the Takenoko-zoku (a precursor to gyaru), 1950s American style fashion, rockabillies, and Pink House. Kato got the impression from Morizono's work that she likes to draw her characters dressed like real life people, or people in high fashion magazines. Morizono confirmed that is correct. (She shows an issue of Fashion News from 1997.) She also likes rock music and was influenced by fashion in Western music magazines.

 

cover illustrations from two of Morizono's manga, Katte ni Senka (1983) and Avenge of Athena (2023)

Kato hadn't read a lot of Morizono's work but the eyelashes really stand out to her; they're long and full, and they keep getting more exaggerated over time. She also puts a lot of effort into hairstyles. From a quick read of some of Morizono's more recent works, Kato thought the way Morizono poses her characters is very much like Alexander McQueen fashion portraits so it was very funny that Morizono would bring an Alexander McQueen catalog to the lecture. Other high fashion influences of hers include Jean Paul Gaultier and Yohji Yamamoto.

Jiraikei ("landmine") and ryôsangata ("mass produced") fashion vs. lolita fashion

These are what Kato believes to be a low budget, fast fashion version of apparel fashion. Apparel traditionally has some sort of age or life stage divisions (student, young working professional, just married, after having children) associated with it, especially 20-30 years ago. Jiraikei and ryôsangata are similar to lolita in that they don't have the sort of age/life stage divisions that apparel traditionally does. But jirai-kei is designed and patterned especially for young people in their teens and 20s, and thus tends to suit young body types best (though older people can certainly wear it if they like it). It's a product of its time. People's bodies change as they age, and jiraikei and ryôsangata fashion generally do not take that into consideration. Kato thinks it's not really something that can be compared to lolita.

The link between music and lolita fashion

Before the internet, you could only experience fashion through seeing it in real life or through word of mouth. You had to directly ask someone who was wearing something cute where they got it, or go looking for it yourself. Fashion trends spread in places where people gathered, especially in music related places (live houses, dance clubs, and discos).

These days, each social media site has its own popular styles even within lolita fashion. Kato thinks a lot of the older people are on X/Twitter. The way people present themselves on each platform (Twitter, Instagram, etc) is different.

Kato mentions again that she's never been to a visual kei show and wishes she'd gone to one when she was younger. She recounts a time that she once made a stage costume for a visual kei band in Osaka. The person wanted the exact outfit that someone in the aforementioned Kiss xxxx manga was wearing, and she called her older sister on the phone to have her look up and describe the manga page the band member wanted her to reference.

Psychological dependence on lolita fashion

People who wear lolita fashion are a very devoted group. Lots of people with autism tend to be in the community (she says this without positive or negative connotation) and this may be why lolitas tend to be very strongly devoted to the fashion, in the same way that some men are REALLY into trains. It's not a strange thing in this hobby and feels quite normal. In public, people who are different tend to stand out. But almost everyone in lolita stands out so it becomes a kind of comfortable space for them to be in.

It attracts a lot of people who think of themselves as "chosen ones" (she says this in a positive sense) but said another way, they are "outcasts". They sense personally within themselves that regular clothes don't feel right for them. Some people wear it as a way to keep going when the rest of their life is hard. Things like this have become more socially acceptable over time, which Kato thinks is a good thing, not just in terms of general social climate but also gender. There are plenty of men who dress in lolita (this is different from being transgender, she points out). It's a very normal thing. Men regularly come to shop at her store alone, and her default is to talk with them as if they are shopping for themselves. Sometimes it turns out they're buying a gift for someone else. But lolita is for everyone. If it makes you feel good and you want to wear it, you can find something that will suit you.

Because it's expensive, though, sometimes being strongly obsessed with it can be a negative thing and you can overspend and buy too much, sort of like a gambling addiction. This can cause some people to quit suddenly. She likens it to drinking alcohol too much. If clothes can bring you joy, clothes can also bring you suffering. This is something that definitely doesn't happen to people who wear regular clothes.

Subculture fashions and finding meaning in life

Kato mentions that her customers all tend to be a certain type kind of person whether they're in their teens or their 50s despite generational differences, fashion trends coming and going, difference in the items she's selling, and the advent of the internet. She talks to younger customers currently in their teens and 20s and it feels the same as talking with customers from 30 years ago.

During the pandemic, sales increased significantly for her and other lolita fashion brands, which she found very interesting. Lolita fashion and manga are both things that are not life necessities and she thinks this fact ended up working in her favor because so many people didn't have a need to buy work clothes (because they weren't working in person) and a lot of other types of entertainment (live shows, travel) were not available at the time, so they used the money they ordinarily would have spent on those things to buy fun, non-essential things that brought them joy. After seeing a huge boost to people's mood during the pandemic from pursuing these non-essential hobbies, Kato thinks more people should devote time and effort to the non-essentials in their lives, even if it's something other than lolita fashion. She also believes that the fact that lolita fashion is non-essential is precisely why it has been able to grow and survive to the present day.

Kato remarked that with the internet it's a lot easier to manufacture things now (including lolita fashion) and find people that can help you get things made, as opposed to the early days when she had to do everything (patterning, sewing, selling) all by herself, and it's a lot more viable to do it as a part time thing rather than commit to it full time.

Morizono reiterated her support for Kato to write a book about all of the things she talked about at this event. Kato agrees that she should do it at some point and in the meantime, it's important to keep talking about the history and memories and experiences because it helps keep the subculture alive and to have a record of its existence. Otherwise, we forget about them and they disappear.

Questions from the audience

Q: What are some things that stood out to each of you about the other's work?
A: (Morizono) I'm truly impressed that Kato designed and made this apron herself. She's on another level.
A: (Kato) Eyelashes, and the particular way she draws eyes (with lots of visible white between the iris and the lower eyelid).

Q: How do I manage my desire to buy lolita within my means?
A: (Kato) Work more (laughs). That way you have enough money to buy everything you want and not have to worry about why you want so much.

Q: My 20-something friend wants to try lolita and they do not have a lot of money. What would you suggest new people start with?
A: (Kato) Skirts are a great place to start. Putting on a big skirt fluffed out to maximum volume can change your life. You can feel the centrifugal force of the hem.

Q: What kind of bands do you like to listen to?
A: (Morizono) Alien Sex Fiend, Tsubaki House, new wave bands

Q: I have tried to make my own lolita clothes but they just don't have the right look. What should I do to make them look more "correct"?
A: (Kato) Pay attention to how much fabric is gathered. Different books and patterns will tell you different ratios (often 1.5x) but I think you should trust more in your personal preference and what you think looks right. Sometimes you need to change it depending on the thickness or characteristics of the fabric you're working with, too. Also be mindful about your technique and work slowly and carefully, especially if you're the type of person to tend to stop at "meh, close enough."

Q: (from the audience and not spoken into a microphone so it was hard to hear the question, but it seems to be about whether Kato is interested in kimono or other Japanese style clothes)
A: (Kato) Actually, my grandmother was a kimono sewist, and my grandparents both worked in the kimono textile industry. But because it was always around me, I was oblivious to it (laughs). My grandmother was always upstairs sewing some kind of kimono. I feel kind of bad about this, but she made my coming-of-age ceremony kimono for me and unfortunately I wore it only once. I gained weight and it no longer fit me, and I asked her to take it apart and re-sew it. Then I only wore it one more time, and now she's gone and it no longer fits me. I'm also rather tall and my body type isn't well suited for antique kimono because they tend to be sized quite small, so I didn't really develop an interest in them.

Q: (Morizono) Has the amount of lolita brands increased after the pandemic? Or maybe even before the pandemic?
A: (Kato) Yes, especially in China.

Q: (Morizono) Can you buy Chinese lolita brand items in Japan?
A: (Kato) Yes, either online or in select shops. They're different from Japanese brands in that they tend to prioritize looking good for beautiful, polished studio photos more than being an everyday street fashion. But China also has a wealth of skilled factory laborers and sewists, and they can make very detailed designs well, pretty much anything you can think of. I'm the type to make do with what I've got, but there are lots of young designers in China pushing and expanding the limits of what can be made.

My impressions

The more I learn about Kato san the more I love her. I related hard to knowing nothing about visual kei and goth culture. I have tried to get into visual kei and goth music but it just does not hold my interest and sometimes I feel bad about that. I appreciate and try to celebrate lolita's roots to music in other ways, however. If she can be such an integral part of the community without being a visual kei fan then I can too. Kato san also seems to honor these roots. I can see her kuso-punk attitude shine through in her approach to creating clothes.

I learned a lot about how the fashion industry used to work and currently works from listening to this talk, as someone who is primarily a consumer of fashion. I think it's important as well as interesting to know what goes into creating the things I love to wear because it gives me a greater appreciation for the work and love that was put into it. My favorite part of the entire discussion was about sewing ruffles and how you can tell who designed or made them just by looking at them. I also think it's comforting to know that there are a lot of the same types of people attracted to the fashion now as in the past. It is still filling an important role in the life of this type of person, and recognizing this connects those of us currently in the fashion to the people who came before us.

I was unfamiliar with Milk Morizono before this talk event was announced but she grew on me a lot after listening to this discussion. She seems cool, and now I want to fall down a 70s and 80s manga rabbit hole. I think it's really sweet that she encouraged Kato so much to publish a historical reference book for lolita fashion, and I personally think Kato is a great candidate for that given her extensive experience as both a long-time consumer and maker of the fashion. We need more widely accepted historical reference material in lolita, especially from women. Novala Takemoto and Mana are cool but surely there are many others that can provide valuable historical information.

A second lecture with a different guest was recently announced for early 2025, and I'm looking forward to listening to and watching that one too!